Foreigners

[Hana]

so i work this little part time jobby on the weekends and today a girl came in the store and was selling wind chimes. she said she was a missionary from her church and she was from Mongolia. she was very nice and polite but the poor girl (i'm guessing she was somewhere between 16-20) couldn't speak English very well. she approached the store's customers as well as us, the staff, and i was appaulled at how some of the people treated her. some of them just gave her a very cold "NO" when she showed them her wind chimes, some ignored her completely. a few, including a girl i work with, gave me a look as if the girl was crazy and rolled their eyes. now i know part of it could have been the fact that she was selling something, i don't like people trying to sell me things either, but you could easily tell that they didn't want to bother with her because she was a foreigner and her English was bad. i live in a pretty small town and it's not everyday that we meet a foreigner.

i was the only one who bought one of her dinky little windchimes, horribly overpriced at $20 but i felt so bad for her plus she said it was for her church so i gave in. i tried to be really nice and i talked with her for a few minutes. she told me i had pretty hair, lol, and she apolgized for her bad English. i said, "no problem" and told her it was very nice meeting her. ordinarily i may not have went out of my way to be nice to someone "just because" they were a foreigner but i just felt so bad for her. and i know that the different languages can be frustrating but i don't think it's any reason to be rude. i dunno, it just really made me mad today.

how do you guys feel about foreigners and the way they're sometimes treated?

[Tuvai]

In that case, I'd be one people giving the cold 'No'. If I'd ever want one of those useless wind chimes, I'd go to the new age store (not like that will ever happen) downtown and buy one. I don't want people to seriously bug me to buy a wind chine, a stupid paper about some disease in Africa or any other thing I don't want, when I'm busy doing my own stuff. When you go downtown here, there's a few of these dipshits always trying to sell people the same stupid magazine about 'poor' children in Africa; sometimes I feel like kicking their asses just because they're so annoying, and instead of making something out of their lives (like, actual doing some REAL work and make a living) just annoying other people.

Not to forget, if I'd have my own store, the last thing I'd want are dipshits like that bugging people to buy something walking around in my store. You DON'T go sell your things in another one's store, that's impudent.

As for foreigners in general, it's a big category. I don't give a shit if someone is foreign, as long as they make themselves understandable and they integrate themselves in the country they're going to live in. Which, on a side note, quite sadly isn't really happening here in Holland where I live. Especially the Maroccan and Turkisch people aren't quite making nice integrated foreigners of themselves. But the huge majority of them just causes trouble; almost everyone hates them here, including me.

I have yet to be even BOTHERED by a foreign Chinese, Spanish or Swedish foreigner here in Holland, unlike with most of those Maroccan and Turkisch dipshits.

[Mike John]

Very good Tuvai! I too like the japanese, korean and chinese people a lot! They are so civilised and intelligent people just like any europeans! They are as nice than any polish, finnish, russian, english and so on would be. And because I just like you don't like the muslim scumbag, doesn't make either me, you or anybody else around here a racist. I rather like the civilised northeast asian than some stupid somalian, turk, bosnian, albanian and so on. Maybe the northeast asians like us northern europeans in the same way that we do? After all they do feel the same against those southasian muslim that we against the mediterrean and african muslim. But that doesn't make them racist either I think.

[Letara]

Of course. I'm so glad you reminded me, that those people in fact are nothing but dipshits ... :yuck:
You make it sound really easy to integrate into a completely new society, after you had to leave your own country. But it's not. It's damn hard and the more people like you exist, the harder it gets. You could of course help them integrating, but it's a lot easier to tell them to leave you alone and get a good job.
When you don't want them to bother you, then at least be polite. That could help to get rid of a lot of prejudices.
Sorry, I think I got a little of topic here.
And because I just like you don't like the muslim scumbag, doesn't make either me, you or anybody else around here a racist.
I demand that *!=%!§=*§!$ to be banned from the forums. That is just so... AARRGH!!!

[Scion of Friggin' Balance]

I can't stand racists. They're just so damn small-minded. 'Hey, your face looks like shit!' Well, happy birthday, Sonnyboy. Idiots. On the other hand, some foreigners are just as small-minded, when they see someone white, they instantly think 'RACIST'. I've experienced a foreigner suddenly noticing me and immediately shouting 'fucking dane'. You can't turn the ocean into shit by putting some mud in. Okay, that was a bad reference, but you get the point. I do understand their anger, but some people really need to open their eyes for positive people also.

[Tuvai]

Letara:

No, if I lived in Holland for my so far 17 year old life already, and I'd have to move to a completely different country like China, then I need to change, period. China is a whole lot different than Holland and NO person in China at all is going to act Dutch in ANY way just because of me. They would see me as a foreigner, and as a foreigner I'm a guest in China. It's simpe as that. To be blunt, I'd be an impudent bastard if I would even think I could live the same way I would in Holland, speak Dutch, and act towards people the same as I did back in Holland.

Oh, and you don't like me calling the majority of Maroccans and Turkisch people dipshits, dipshit? Well, tough luck for you, because I do. Obviously you have no idea of how it goes in real life, or you do and you're afraid to voice it. Currently the situation in Holland is escalating more and more. It's not because Holland is a country filled with criminals, not at all. It's because the huge majority of Maroccan and Turkisch people that live here don't integrate at all, think they can do the same muslim/islam-bullshit they perform in their own stupid country (such as animal slaughtering holidays, beating your wife, and other stuff that is forbidden here in Holland), and that causes fights and wars.

Like I said, situation's getting worse and worse with mostly Maroccans and Turkisch people here in Holland right now. Every day you'll read news articles or hear news about this trash, and most of the time it's because they did something which is normal in their own country, but highly forbidden in THIS country. And because they are not originally Dutch people, and they want to start living here, then first let themselves perfectly integrate in THIS country, where they are GUESTS.

I'm not even going to say I'm not a racist, because I know I am. Don't get me wrong, I don't just hate any other kind of people, I don't just hate specific stereotypes, I don't just hate foreigners (not at all, I got a lot of foreign friends, and yes, even a few Maroccan and Turkish ones; that is, the ones that aren't unrespectful dipshits and pretend they are still in their own country), but when I'm talking about the majority of Maroccan and Turkisch people, well, tough shit, they screwed it up here for themselves, and judging by the escalating situation here in Holland, I'd say nearly all other native Dutch people agree with me.

Oh yeah, and Letara.

When you don't want them to bother you, then at least be polite.

You never ran into a group of troublecausing foreigners, did you? Just take my word that asking them "Would you please stop?", will definately NOT make them stop with whatever they're doing.

Oh yeah, I have one more thing to add, because I know some dipshits are going to reply to my post now telling me how I'm a racist, a conclusion-jumper or in general just an asshole, but let me tell this in advance to those people who are even thinking about replying with that kind of stuff to my post:

You are a stupid hypocrit.

Would you want to be approached by a foreigner that wants to sell you wind chines when you are in a clothing shop? No, you don't. Admit it.
When you see a group of foreigners breaking something or attacking someone just for fun, would politely asking them "Would you please stop doing that?" making them stop? No, it wouldn't.

Consider me an asshole, I don't care. But I'm being honest, where it's obvious enough that the majority of people that try to prove me wrong on my points, are hypocritical dopshits.

Oh yeah, and just so you know, most of you are already foreigners to me. I know just a few other Dutch people here.

[Thief]

When you see a group of foreigners breaking something or attacking someone just for fun, would politely asking them "Would you please stop doing that?" making them stop? No, it wouldn't.
Where did you see that? Im sure someone is going to blame the "Stupid Americans" for that one, they allways do...

[Tuvai]

Where did you see that? Im sure someone is going to blame the "Stupid Americans" for that one, they allways do...
Oh, trust me, it constantly happens here. In Fact, I'm talking about it in the IRC channell right now.

Yes, I'm going to badmouth Maroccans and Turkish people again. They're always looking for trouble here in Holland. You're all welcome to come visit me sometimes, and to show I'll take you downtown. There's always gangs of Maroccans and Turkish people annoying and sometimes even attacking people for NOTHING, and just breaking down stuff with no reason in particular.

Thursday I went out, we were with a group of 8, 4 guys and 4 girls. This Maroccan guy showed up and started harrassing one of the girls that was with us. We already told him to fuck off, but he didn't. He started getting even worse; when I pushed him away, he got all stupid and aggressive towards me. I punched him, he actually did fuck off now. But 10 minutes later I was surrounded by a big group of Maroccans. All of them were verbally attacking me, and pretty much making me out as a racist again; 3 of them were physically attacking me. That was their excuse. So, just because I packed that guy who was harrassing the girl that was with us a few punches because he kept going on and on, and he could've been ANY other person for that matter, I'm a racist? Go to hell, fucking lameasses.

And yes, you come accross these troublecausing groups of most of the time Maroccans and Turkish people ALL the time.

[Letara]

No, if I lived in Holland for my so far 17 year old life already, and I'd have to move to a completely different country like China, then I need to change, period. China is a whole lot different than Holland and NO person in China at all is going to act Dutch in ANY way just because of me. They would see me as a foreigner, and as a foreigner I'm a guest in China. It's simpe as that. To be blunt, I'd be an impudent bastard if I would even think I could live the same way I would in Holland, speak Dutch, and act towards people the same as I did back in Holland.
I am perectly aware of the problems, with foreigners who don't want to integrate into a new country. I live in Germany and we got EXACTLY the same problems. Muslims fundamentalists, who hide here and still dare to say that germans are nothing but sinners and therefore deserve to go to hell. Well fuck them, they are NOT representative. They deserve to get banned and just recently there have been comfirmed new laws, to make that easier.

Oh, and you don't like me calling the majority of Maroccans and Turkisch people dipshits, dipshit? Well, tough luck for you, because I do. Obviously you have no idea of how it goes in real life, or you do and you're afraid to voice it. Currently the situation in Holland is escalating more and more.
You have no idea. Stop calling me, or anyone else a dipshit. You insecure little self centered idea of a mod.
Of course problems are escalating! Just think of the fact that Bush is running around, slaughtering everyone, who could possibly be a terrorist.
That provoces that more and more muslims are converted into radical fundamentalists.

then first let themselves perfectly integrate in THIS country, where they are GUESTS.
And how is that supposed to work, when people like you don't even give them a chance to integrate?

but when I'm talking about the majority of Maroccan and Turkisch people, well, tough shit, they screwed it up here for themselves, and judging by the escalating situation here in Holland, I'd say nearly all other native Dutch people agree with me.
I don't think so. In fact I am sure you are wrong.
I think everything you say is based on personal experience and childish prejudices.


You never ran into a group of troublecausing foreigners, did you? Just take my word that asking them "Would you please stop?", will definately NOT make them stop with whatever they're doing.

"Would you please stop?" would have worked with the little girl, Djinn was talking about.
And I did. Often enough. I never insulted them though. I could always solve the problem with normal words.

Would you want to be approached by a foreigner that wants to sell you wind chines when you are in a clothing shop? No, you don't. Admit it.
Don't even try to make me fit into your horizon. I admit, of course, that I don't want to be bothered, but ask Djinn. She (I hope that is the right gender) obvioulsy found a better way, of dealing with the situation. SHE WAS NICE. Read those words very carefully.


Consider me an asshole, I don't care. But I'm being honest, where it's obvious enough that the majority of people that try to prove me wrong on my points, are hypocritical dopshits.

"I know, that I am an asshole and I know that everyone who is not of my opinion is just denying his true thoughts."
Damn! You're so right! How could I forget that! I have just been saved!
...
Your incapability to understand what other people think and why they act how they act, is really a reason to feel sorry.

[Thief]

If this was in debates, Id say you have an excuse for all this ranting...

Anyway, Leroy, I think that you had full right to get that guy off of that girl, he was being a total a**. It doesnt matter where youre from, thats just impolite and not propper to do. But, it happens with white guys, too; They harrass people just as much, especially over here cause they are rednecks... They just dont call you racist because of it.

[Tuvai]

Letara, you'd better stop the fucking "You are hitler" behavior towards me right now, or I'll kick you out of here, simple as that. I'm far from someone who's just out to bash foreign people, feel free to make contact to any of my many foreign friends if you don't want to believe that. I have NO respect at all for foreigners that prove themselves to be annoying, misfit or in any other way misplaced here, or the ones that just want to get pity for that matter.

I'm NOT talking about Bush or the little girl Djinn had to put up with. And where the hell did you get the impression that I don't let people integrate? I got a lot of foreign friends, from Belgium to Chinese people. I even hang out with a bunch of other prejudged people such as skaters and trailer park people. I have respect for every single person I know. But foreign dipshits that just come here to screw up, can for my part just pack their bags and go back to the big squares of sand they came from.

Oh yeah, I'd love to see you approach the groups I'm talking about here with your so called normal worlds. It would never solve shit, and all that would happen is that you'd get beaten up. You know that's true, spikey, admit it.

Oh, and in Djinn's case, she was nice? Djinn felt sorry for that girl and even spent 20 whole dollars on something which is useless, just useless, but just bought it because she felt sorry for the girl. That's not nice, but in my eyes, stupid. I don't want to buy shit from foreigners, or native people for that matter, that are bugging me to buy something, and the last thing I'd do to make them go away is actually buy something from them. Oh, what's that? Do I hear the sentence "But that's a good deed!" there? Well, tough shit, pussycat. You just wasted 20 dollars on something that isn't going to prove useful to you in any way, just because you felt sorry for someone. Yeah, for the girl it's indeed something good, after all, she earned 20 dollars with it. You? You are just stupid.

Letara, just come to Holland and I'll bring you downtown so you can meet some of the groupies I'm talking about. I'd love to see you stop their violence with your pretty, polite and strong words. Come on, I dare you.

[Letara]

Letara, you'd better stop the fucking "You are hitler" behavior towards me right now, or I'll kick you out of here, simple as that.
Don't be childish. I am saying that your behaviour is wrong, not that you are Hitler. Everytime I tell somebody that racism is bad, he will react exactly like you did.
So you have got a lot of friends from other countrys. Yeah, I guessed that already, because otherwise you wouldn't be in here.

Letara, just come to Holland and I'll bring you downtown so you can meet some of the groupies I'm talking about. I'd love to see you stop their violence with your pretty, polite and strong words. Come on, I dare you.
Yeah. Holland is hell. You have such a damn hard life, always in danger because of all those f*cked up foreigners, who don't want anything but trouble.
So some of them won't pay attention to my words. Of course. But does that mean I punch them in the face? How ignorant is that? The situation you described was the perfect example for something called "unnecessary escalation". He harrassed the girl. If I would have been in your situation, I also wouldn't have wished anything else, but beat that guy into the dust. But I wouldn't have done it, because I know that such a reaction will make him run away only to come back with ten friends. You were 6 people against one and you didn't find a way, to make him go away? How about you three guys standing in his way, telling him to go back from were he came from, because there is nothing here to win for him?
Come on.

Oh, and in Djinn's case, she was nice? Djinn felt sorry for that girl and even spent 20 whole dollars on something which is useless, just useless, but just bought it because she felt sorry for the girl. That's not nice, but in my eyes, stupid. I don't want to buy shit from foreigners, or native people for that matter, that are bugging me to buy something, and the last thing I'd do to make them go away is actually buy something from them. Oh, what's that? Do I hear the sentence "But that's a good deed!" there? Well, tough shit, pussycat. You just wasted 20 dollars on something that isn't going to prove useful to you in any way, just because you felt sorry for someone. Yeah, for the girl it's indeed something good, after all, she earned 20 dollars with it. You? You are just stupid.
First of all you will stop your insults. If anything then insult me.
What she did was not useless. She gave a girl who apparently really needed it 20 dollars. What is so wrong about being good to people? Even if they are trying to sell you useless waste?
You are provocating aggressive foreigners with your racism. Don't you get it? Your behaviour. You absolut lack of comprehension for the social difficulties, turkish and maroccan people are confronted with in your country. You aggression. Your insults. Your arrogance towards me. All that is causing the problems we are discussing here.

[Thief]

f*cked up foreigners
Wait... Holland has f*ucked up foreigners? Weed smoke does it! XP! nah, dont blame the weed... But it might be a factor that they provide the heroin needles and all. It isnt that bad here in the U.S. with foreigners, or at least not in new orleans, since most of em can speak english. Well, anyway, from what ive seen of foreigners, most of them stick to themselves. It is definitly a rarity to see one in MY town, cept for vietnamese cause they go into the seafood industry here. Most of the foreigners that I know are cool, though...

[crovax]

This debate has been going on as long as I can remember. what restrictions should we put on immigrants and how should we treat them. there is no right answer to any of this people well always fear what we do not understand and the idea of foreigners coming in to you countries and taking your jobs and homes and causing trouble in your society, foreigners in general is one of the biggest fears held by most of the people in the world. So we avoid talking to them and looking at them because we don't know how they are going to act. And why do we do this because we are stupid, afraid and closed minded monkeys. And this type of thing is just going to get worse the more we populate the world.

Now I am not saying all foreigners are good I am just saying we should keep an open mind about things like this.

For me I like foreigners I live in the barrio whitch is the getto where I come from so all of my friends are foreigners and I see how they are treated and it sucks but that is how life is.

[Mike]

Oh! Oh! I've got a good idea! How about we stop biting each other's heads off before this topic is closed?!

[Letara]

Wait... Holland has f*ucked up foreigners? Weed smoke does it! XP!
I didn't think of drugs. In fact I was just extremely pissed and therefore became extremely sarcastic. :P
Drugs are a general problem. There is no special connection between foreigners and drugs.

@Silver
...okay.

[Kiggs]

Idea to go along with Silver's..let's toss this to Debates and Discussions.

AND KEEP IT CIVIL, GUYS. This goes for everyone, not just normal members.

[manju]

That's an absolutely wonderful idea.

Now, from what I've heard, not just from this thread, many Turkish people have made somewhat of a bad image of themselves all over Europe. There has been an immigration problem in many Western European countries and there are many incidents which involve these people. Here in England, you can always rely on a certain newspaper to give a colourful account of any incident involving refugees and other immigrants who already have an image problem.

I don't think that anyone can say that there isn't a problem with certain minorities in places such as Holland. They have something like 30% of all young Muslims being unemployed and a general unemployment level of 11% compared to 3% nationally (from the BBC website, as of 2000). I think that there is a problem with integration both in the community and with the law accommodating Islam (there are legal Islamic slaughter houses and so I assume that, if one chooses so, the Islamic slaughtering rituals can be carried out legally). Now, from the view of someone living in a suburban area, I think I would trust Tuvai and his experiences. 3 in 10 young Muslims in Holland have no job, they probably never finished their compulsory education and they probably have a lot of frustration and time on their hands, I'm sure they do make a lot of trouble. On the other hand, there are upwards of half a million Muslims in Holland, with high concentrations in cities. Now, I don't know where Tuvai lives but it sounds like a reasonably urban area, at least the downtown that he mentions, and so there are probably thousands of Muslims living there, maybe even tens of thousands. It doesn't take 100 people to create an imposing presence or to do considerable damage to a given area, even if it is sizeable. That would be a matter of a few percent of the population. In a similar way to fundamentalist extremists (but clearly not as extreme), I do think that it is a case of a minority causing trouble for everyone else and fueling racial hatred for the masses. In the end, 250,000 people causing trouble would be a national crisis to say the least, let alone a "huge majority".

[Alexander]

I got the crap kicked out me when I was 17 (many moons ago! LOL) by a group of asian lads...the reason, because i was white and I was there. How did I react? You'll probably think I'm mad, or maybe something else...but I just thought "Someone has pissed them off." I never called the police. A few days later, I spotted one of the kids in town, so I went up to him, assured him I wasn't pissed at him, I just wanted to know wh yhe did it. He then told me that it was because his friends' sister had been beaten up, the group of friends were angry and wanted revenge...and I was the first person they found. Yeah, I was fucked off at getting beaten up, but after hearing his story, my suspicions were realised. He felt really bad for what he did, and felt worse when I showed him my membership card from The Anti-Nazi League.

Turns out it was a skinhead who attacked the girl.

In my country, we have this psycho ranting on about how wesrnen(reason for edit...I meant western) people need to be destroyed and loopholes in the law prevent him from being deported, yet a lady from Nigeria who had been here since she was 10, had to leave at the age of 26 when her husband, a native of this country, died.

This problem is a real pain. Why the hell can't people, I mean ALL people, just get on? I'll tell you why...because some freaks enjoy violence. Please note, I'm NOT referring to anyone here. I may have had a bit of a heated discussion with one of you (sorry, Kai. We may have our differences, but I still think you're an okay dude!) but I'm not calling any of you here freaks. I'm referring to those out there who think a jihad or the Forth Reich is the solution...it's not. All that will do is pour petrol on the proverbial fire.

Am i the only person has spotted something about this forum? We come from all walks of life, are of different creeds, colours and countries, yet we are all brought together by a game called Final Fantasy...don't any of you find that as remarkable as I?

If only we could find something that the whole population of the world could relate to that could do the same as FF has done for us!

Peace. Love. Freedom.

[Sephie3]

WOW!!!!!!!! you guys sure like to yell. I live in Vegas and they're are ton of foreigners here. And ya know what? they all manage to get a long. Maybe it's because they're in Vegas but still. The promblem isn't so much races as just idiots. everyone races has their own fair share of idiots. See I manage to get my point across with out pissing anybody off. kudos to me. Silver that is an excellent Idea.And Tuvai. don't threaten people it's not polite.

[Tuvai]

No Letara, if you would've PROPERLY read my post, you would've read that the guy that was bothering the girl with us, did NOT stop regardless of multiple times we told him to fuck off. When I lost my patience with that moron because he quite frankly wasn't planning to stop, I pushed him (and not even hard, I might add) when he was going to give the harrassment another try, and he pretty much started flaming me; when he tried to rush into me I gave him a beating, and don't tell me it was the wrong thing to do, because, for the third time, it was not like he was going to listen to our warnings. Period. He deserved the beating.

And if you are so certain about your points, then why are you using sarcastic bullshit? I'm not claiming holland is a tough place to live, I have a hard life nor that I'm always in danger because of foreigners. I don't know where you think up that crap, but all of those points are bullshit.

If Holland in general was just a hard place for foreigners to fit into, and mainly, as you claim, because of people like me. Then there would be none. Holland however is FULL with foreigners. And really, if I would be the racistic bitch you are pretty much claiming me to be, wouldn't I be acting different in this situation? Like I said in my very first post in this thread, you'll never see or hear anything negative about Chinese, Swedish or other foreigners, in spite of the fact they are pretty common around this area.

But I guess it won't penetrate your thick skull anyway, all you pretty much have to say is that I'm a racist. Who cares? This post-chunk in particular pisses me off.

You are provocating aggressive foreigners with your racism. Don't you get it? Your behaviour. You absolut lack of comprehension for the social difficulties, turkish and maroccan people are confronted with in your country.Don't you get it, dumbass? I hate the Maroccans and Turkisch people so much because they screwed up with me, and almost every other native Dutch person. I respect every single person, but foreigners that want to live here that only look for trouble, think they can do the same things they did back in their own country, and don't properly integrate will be kicked out of this fucking country right now if it was me.

Like I said, I hang out with a lot of foreigners, obviously I don't have a problem with foreigners in general.

Talking about the word 'racism', that word pisses me off. You know why? Because it's being abbused like mad. What the fuck? What's wrong with people? If 2 people from 2 different countries (or different origin in the same country) are flaming eachother, it's not just called flaming, it's already being called racism. I mean, what the hell?

Come think of it, I'm not even being a racist. You know why not? Because I don't hate Maroccand and Turkish people, just because they are from Marocco or Turky, I hate them because they're screwing it up themselves here. If the Chinese people would do the same, I'd hate the Chinese people, heck, I hate enough native Dutch people as well. It's far from me hating foreigners, and in this case Maroccans or the Turkish, just because they are.

They just screwed up here, badly. Just a very few Maroccans and Turkish people I know act civiled, and don't look for trouble pretty much all day. Those are for my part more than welcome to live here. As for the troublecausers, bye bye.

[Sephie3]

I really don't think this is what Djinn had in mind when she started this post.Tuvai were you talking to me or Letera?

[Thief]

Idea to go along with Silver's..let's toss this to Debates and Discussions.
Hey! I had the idea first...
If this was in debates, Id say you have an excuse for all this ranting... See? credit where credit is due, please...


Anyway, The dutch were in south affrica. They came into power there and forever opressed the native African peoples. Isnt that at all simmilar to what you say foreigners are doing over in holland, Leroy?

[Sephie3]

The also joined up with the u.k. germany, berlin, SPain Italy, and there was one other one. Called themselves the Afrikaners.

[Mike]

Enough of this. I'm sorry, Djinn, but it appears that Leroy wishes to continue the heated argument publically.

[Tuvai]

I was mostly talking to Letara, but the point I'm trying to make here is a general one. People are way to quick to label someone as a racist, and a lot of prejudges are made when the word 'foreigners' is even mentioned.